I just watched 6.03

[glorious_spoon]

...and my assessment of Sam's character thus far is that he's trying to turn himself into the kind of person Dean used to be without really understanding what kind of person that was. I'm hoping this is a deliberate choice on the part of the show's writers, and also that Sam won't continue building gigantic houses of cards until the season finale. Again.

And also, if Dean could re-grow his backbone, that would be nice. JFC, show. I love you, but sometimes...

Comments

[alexseanchai]

That's been part of the show since season three. I forget what ep it was where Sam said if he was going to survive Dean being gone then he'd need to turn himself into Dean, but it was right around then that he started with the ends-justify-means without paying much attention to how early-show ends-justify-means Dean was also all about the compassion.

[glorious-spoon.livejournal.com]

I think the fundamental difference between Sam and Dean is that Sam is a lot better at lying to himself about his motivations. Dean can be an epic bastard, but he's usually aware that he's being an epic bastard, which tends to limit how far he's willing to go. Sam, on the other hand, can talk himself into some truly horrific shit by telling himself it's for the greater good.

Sam, I think, always kind of hero-worshiped his big brother as a kid, but there's a sort of disconnect in his head between 'Dean the awesome cool hunter that he wanted to emulate' and 'Dean the fucked-up human who can't look after himself'. So it ends up with Sam trying to become this version of Dean that never actually existed, while simultaneously dismissing the reality of his brother.

...and it's wayyy too late for this kind of psychoanalysis. :P

[alexseanchai]

The instances I can think of of Sam doing horrific shit by telling himself it's for the greater good, though, given what he knew at the time, he wasn't lying to himself. Not about the greater good bit, at least. Sam's using demon-based power to exorcise demons instead of killing them and their hosts did save the lives of those of the hosts who weren't walking corpses already. Nancy's death would have saved several lives, if Ruby was telling the truth about that spell. Lilith's death before she could open the last seal would have saved lots and lots of lives, if Lilith's death hadn't been the final seal. I had another would-if but I forgot it. Not saying Sam's not awesome at lying to himself, because he is, but every time I can think of where he thinks he's doing something for the greater good, either he's right or he would be right if the situation were what he thought it was.

You're telling me. I actually went to bed two hours ago...

[glorious-spoon.livejournal.com]

IA, mostly, but I'm more thinking about Sam's motivations--in S4, for example, he was telling himself that it was for the greater good and that was true as far as he had reason to know--but he was also, IMHO, pretty deliberately ignoring any evidence or arguments that didn't fit with his view of the situation. I think it wasn't just about good intentions gone wrong; he also had some personal issues in the mix that he really wasn't copping to (fear of losing control of the situation, jealousy over Dean having his own personal angel, disappointment over angels in general, a whole lot of ego and aimless rage looking for a target, etc.).

[glorious-spoon.livejournal.com]

Also, jesus, I need to sleeeeep.

[zatnikatel.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to be profound and philosophical at dark fucking thirty. WTF aren't I in bed?

How to look at this… the first option is that Sam doesn't really know Dean, and never has. Which is profoundly sad, and leaves me with very little faith that he will ever give his brother the respect he deserves. The second option is that the writers/producers/creator of Show don't really know Dean, and are oblivious to the layers Jensen Ackles has imbued the character with. And if that's the case, then I have no confidence in them ever treating both the actor and the character with the respect they deserve. >:/

I'm going to bed.

[glorious-spoon.livejournal.com]

Oh, way to make me all depressed :P

The third option that I'm clinging to tooth and nail is that Sam is capable of meeting Dean as an equal but it's still something he's new at (26 years of Dean basically acting as his substitute father are bound to have an effect) and when he's really screwed up he falls back into trying to become his idealized version of Dean. Basically, IMO, Sam is at his most pigheadedly overbearing (S4, for example, and now) when he's really, really lost.

Otherwise, I am going to be very sad about this show.

[zatnikatel.livejournal.com]

Awww, sorry! I'm clinging to this too, but in the manner of a non-swimmer pitched into the north Atlantic who is being weighed down by her very heavy overcoat and is panicking and dragging her would-be rescuers down under the frothing surf with her.

What I want is some evidence that Sam is learning how to love Dean. I mean, since Crapke's allusions to the fact that Dean apparently didn't really love Sam S1-4, but in fact had to "learn how to" do that in S5 [hang on for a sec while I hurl violently], my assumption is that surely the same can be applied to Sam. So when are we going to see Sam's learning curve? Grrrrr.

[glorious-spoon.livejournal.com]

See, I can almost see that, in the sense that Dean needed to learn to love Sam as an equal and a partner rather than as someone who needed looking after (although he sure as hell could have put it better than that).

The thing with Sam is...I'm actually hoping that this is mostly supernatural-induced so that this really isn't the real Sam in any meaningful way. Because I can play psychology a whole bunch, but the fact is that if this is just Sam's screwy head and not something evil messing him up, I don't know if I can forgive him.

Even in S4--he was being a dick, yeah, but he was being a dick in a way that made some psychological sense. This Sam is basically acting like a sociopath out of the blue, and I really hope that something else is making him be that way.

[salty-catfish.livejournal.com]

Sam really, really needs to get a grip soon. The overbearing dickishness of 6.01 is really a high hurdle if they ever want to bring the brothers at eye level again. I'm wondering about that 'again' now.

[irismay42.livejournal.com]

From the looks of the "Soon" at the end of 6.3, I'm thinking they're not going to drag the "What's up with Sam?" thing out as long as they dragged it out in season 4. At least I hope not!

I'm enjoying how they're writing Sam and how Jared's playing him at the moment though. Kind of like the Sam of the six months without Dean in Mystery Spot.

And Dean's "Who died and made you boss?" comment really shows how their relationship has been flipped on it's head, and exacerbated underlying tensions that were already there - such as Sam's struggle to be seen as an equal by Dean when he's probably struggling to see himself that way after the demon blood and Lucifer and, as you point out, Dean pretty much being a substitute father figure. I don't think Dean ever managed to feel like John's equal.

It'll be interesting to see whether Sam has a meltdown like Dean did, or whether he's over the whole Cage thing in a way Dean will probably never be over Hell. Somehow I doubt it.

[glorious-spoon.livejournal.com]

If they write Sam as just being genuinely over the whole Cage thing, I'm going to be really aggravated. I don't need him to turn into S4 Dean, all angst and alcoholism--especially since he didn't spend nearly as much time in the Pit--but it would be nice to see something.

I'd actually really like to see Sam have a meltdown, just because that would be a point he could build up from.

[rokhal.livejournal.com]

Sam tends to reinvent himself almost every season, so it would be surprising if he wasn't different. But with the number of different ways that he's acting (emotionless one hour, bitter and petty the next) it's really hard to set up a decent hypothesis. Show could play coy with him for the next two months, who knows.
Right now, Sam is kind of a hybrid of the most obnoxious aspects of John and Dean, what with the smart mouth, the recklessness, and the bossiness.
What I find really interesting is that Sam confides his insecurities to Samuel ("Sometimes I don't know about me, either,") but continues to put up a front for Dean.