Pissy 5.03 Meta

[glorious_spoon]

What is with all the ragging on the Dean - Castiel brothel scene in 5.03? I thought it was hilarious and kind of sweet, as well as being perfectly in character for Dean. So what the hell is with all the people going 'Nonononono Dean wouldn't do that, he is having ANGST about Sammy leaving! Angst, I tell you! And also there is a very serious mission tomorrow! He must be serious! This is backsliding into the fires of denial! He must have a good cathartic sobfest IMMEDIATELY!"

Dude. This is Dean. Please go back and watch, well, the entire freaking series. Yes, he's stressed out and lonely and scared. Now, pop quiz: typically, how does Dean deal with being stressed out, lonely, and scared?

Oh, right. He goes and gets drunk and finds the nearest available attractive woman he can finangle into bed. Or he starts a fight (or occasionally both). 4.10 notwithstanding, good cathartic sobfests are not and have never really been his style.

Also, observe the way he has constantly taken a proprietary interest in Sam's sex life, since approximately the middle of Season 1. To Dean, getting somebody laid is an expression of affection and a rite of passage. And in this particular case, it falls very neatly in with his more generalized attempt to blow off some steam.

I've actually read people complaining that it's crass and crude and therefore OOC. I think these are people who have become so enamored of fandom's vision of Dean that they forget how he acts in the actual canon. Crass and crude are kind of what he does, and for me it was actually refreshing to see him loosen up and act like his old jackass self.

But hey, what the hell do I know; after all everybody knows that if there are no Single Crystal Tears, it doesn't count as real Dean characterization.

</sarcasm>

Seriously, take a look at this video. Or this one. Or maybe this. These are all situations in which Dean is dealing with some serious emotional issues. Observe how he goes about it. Now tell me that brothel scene was OOC.

Comments

[vikki.livejournal.com]

WORD TO ALL OF THIS. The only character I had any issue with in this scene was Castiel, and then only the minor one of feeling that his nervousness was overplayed (but generally spot-on). Dean was just being himself: he enjoys sex unironically, which means everyone else should get to enjoy sex unironically - and if you're his friend, well, you're damn well gonna get laid. It's pretty much one of the ways he shows he cares. XD;

Thank you for an excellent post. I think people sometimes get a little caught up in fandom and, as you said, forget that our general fanon is not, in fact, canon. I laughed all the way through the scene. :)

[glorious-spoon.livejournal.com]

I agree re: Castiel, although Misha was comical enough that I'm willing to forgive the hamming. The funny thing is that I haven't really seen anybody complaining about Castiel's behavior; it's all been about Dean. You know, because his brother left and he's all upset and so how dare they have him go out to a brothel of all places?

Seriously, Dean's a righteous man, a martyr, a hero, maybe even a saint by some standards. He's also a crude, flippant, prank-playing horny smartass who'll hit on anything that moves and drag his straightlaced guardian angel to a brothel. That's kind of the whole reason he's awesome.

[coronasunrise.livejournal.com]

Word. I feel that I should add something more to that but I just can't. However, most of the complaints I've seen talk about how sexist the brothel scene was. I don't see it, but then again I generally don't.

[glorious-spoon.livejournal.com]

I actually thought the brothel scene was about as non-sexist as a brothel scene can get (then again, one of my best friends is a sex worker, so I don't see it as an inherently demeaning profession). Both Dean and Castiel are treating the women as people--yeah, Castiel is awkward and inappropriate about it, but that's largely par for the course with Castiel in any kind of human social situation. And I actually loved Dean's attitude, because he gets that these are women who are doing a job--you would not believe the number of men who think that if they pay a girl to fuck them or dance for them, she's their girlfriend. Dean has some sense of the boundaries (ie, that the prostitute might not want to talk to her customers about her jerkass father), which I actually thought was kind of cool.

But maybe that's just me.

[naatz.livejournal.com]

Nope. Not just you. But then again, I don't see the show as misogynist or even ::gasp:: sexist. It has its moments, but it's usually Dean being himself, and Dean is not all that good with women. It's like he doesn't know how to relate to them.

|Meduza|

long comment is long

[glorious-spoon.livejournal.com]

The argument I see most often is that Dean (a) uses words like 'bitch' all the time and (b) sleeps around like nobody's business.

Which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. He uses casually sexist language, yeah, but he's a blue-collar guy who hangs out with other blue-collar guys and isn't really the type to edit himself for political correctness.

He sleeps around, but...so? He's a good-looking, charming guy who doesn't stay in one place long enough to have a relationship. It's either sleeping around or celibacy.

The funny thing is that all these people seem to forget that the one and only time anyone ever asked him unequivocally, he flat-out said that women can be hunters, just fine, and his interaction with female hunters and women in general seem to bear out that attitude.

The show's far from flawless, but it isn't nearly as bad as a lot of commentary makes it out to be.

/long ranty comment :P

[naatz.livejournal.com]

What is this, analyse!Dean day? Because the subject of the show's sexism is seriously pissing me off.

a) Dean calls Sam 'bitch' the most. When it's obvious how much he loves Sam. So whenever he calls someone else 'bitch', do you think he's comparing them to Sam? :P Also possibly, it was either 'bitch' or 'fucking shit', which wouldn't have flown well in public.

b) And if it was a woman who slept around like nobody's business, we'd have called the show feminist. God, I love hypocrisy.

c) They're all ignoring that Sam *doesn't* sleep around *and* doesn't swear, and that he doesn't condone Dean's behaviour and calls him out on it.

The argument *I* see most often is how every woman dies. Well, says I, at least there are women, and they kick ass. None of my other fandoms ever have had such strong female characters, and there aren't any in most canons I read/see, and everybody forgets that the men die too.

I honestly think that Sam and Dean feel better around women, that Dean truly respects women {and sets out not to hurt them} even if his methods are questionable. Heck, Dean opens up relatively fast to women, and he'd die for them, and other than his family, Bobby and Cas, they're the only ones we see he gives a damn about {other than little boys. He likes boy!kids better than girl!kids}.

And God, do people seriously think that a show is sexist just because of what ONE CHARACTER says? It's like 5.17 and the whore comments, which I found perfectly justifiable and understandable and not sexist in the least.


The thing I appreciate the most about the show is the characterisation {closely followed by the plot. Yes, I *do* watch it for the plot}. What I'll never forgive it for is 5.18. :(

|Meduza|

[dauntdraws.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you on this. I don't get why people get worked up over how crude/crass and non PC Dean is and claim it's not IC. D: Dude, he's DEAN. Also, our favorite characters don't always behave perfectly. That's part of what makes them awesome. Dean is awesome just how he is, character development and all. Also, I'm glad his walls are back up enough that he can be more his 'usual' self in that episode.

Anyways. >_> Random girl comments in your random entry. Forgive me!

[glorious-spoon.livejournal.com]

I just get so tired of the saintly version of Dean that's been circling the internet lately. It makes me want to write him and Sam having a farting contest, or something.

[naatz.livejournal.com]

It makes me want to write him and Sam having a farting contest

::blinks::

dooooo eeeeeeeet

|Meduza|

[naatz.livejournal.com]

I didn't like it not because of anybody being OOC {although Castiel was a little overacted}, but because it had been written in in the first place. It was too obviously done for fanservice. What I found annoying wasn't the scene in the brothel itself, but when Dean told Cas they were GOING to the brothel. There was just a leap of logic in there that I didn't get.

|Meduza|

[glorious-spoon.livejournal.com]

See, that I can get. I'm just annoyed by the people going 'oh, my sweet little Dean wouldn't do that.'

[naatz.livejournal.com]

Dudette! Dean!

|Meduza|